Madoka Kaname VS Knull (Madoka Magica VS Marvel) Short prediction
Madoka kaname, a magical girl who became a god for hope.
Knull, the Symbiote God of Despair.
When the symbiote lost to the pink anime girl twice in the Death Battle, an ultimate question was left for us: who is stronger, the strongest pink anime girl or the strongest symbiote? Will the goddess of hope finally purify despair, or will the king of darkness devour all hope?
Before we begin…
For Madoka, since my native language is Chinese and most of the materials for the Madoka Magica franchise are incomplete on American websites, if the materials I use do not have the original Japanese source, I will use the Chinese version instead, and attach the English translation below. For the source of the materials, it is not only the animation and its lore itself, but also the spin-off novel "Non-Magical Girl", the spin-off mobile game "Magia Record", etc., which are all in the official story continuity. Madoka appears in these series and shows her power in all of them.
For Knull, things are much simpler, the Earth-616 version is all of his appearances and performances. Most of the scaling and calculations are referenced from the Knull Respect thread on reddit and the G1 blog's section on Marvel Herald, with my own insights.
Skill & Experience
Madoka
When she first became a magical girl and met Homura, Madoka had already been fighting as a magical girl for several years with Mami and Sayaka. She had skilled archery skills and taught Homura how to fight together with Mami as her senior. After that, she reincarnated very, very, many times, and each reincarnation was engraved in her memory after she became a god. She who has become a god is the ultimate posture of all her selves fighting at the end of time and space. Since she has experienced every timeline centered on each person, their memories all exist in her mind. Since she has become an omniscient being, she has mastered all knowledge, the past, the future, and the present, all in her eyes.
Knull
Despite not possessing any formal training, Knull is a vicious warrior with billions of years' worth of combat experience, capable of slaughtering entire armies of gods augmented by the Uni-Power singlehandedly.
Equipment
Madoka
Rose branch bow
A bow resembling a rose branch, Madoka's trusted weapon. Fires magical arrows that home in on the foe, and is also capable of firing multiple arrows in one shot. In her ultimate form, it is infinite in length and completely intouchable.
Pumpkin carriage
As a messenger of God, it is funny to need to drive a car. But don't underestimate it, not only is there an unlimited supply of it, but it can also use its cannon to blow up the entire galaxy.
Knull
Necrosword
In order to slay a Celestial, Knull manifested a black-and-red sword from his shadow; later refining it using the dead Celestial's cosmic power.Using this weapon, which came to be known as All-Black, Knull attempted to carry out a genocide against his fellow gods, but it was stolen from him after he was wounded in battle.When confronted by Wraith, Knull removed Zak-Del's Exolon symbiote and absorbed it into his symbiote-armor before reforming All-Black's Necrosword form.
Symbiote Armor
After forging All-Black, Knull created a suit of symbiote-armor from the Living Abyss. It can capable of shapeshifting to manifest a cape, waistcloth, wing-like fins, and draconic helmet. Although it may be vulnerable to high temperatures and supersonic speeds, it can withstand passing through planetary atmospheres and immersion in stellar plasma without suffering major damage.
Abilities
Madoka
Omniscience
As God herself, her existence is spread throughout the beginning and end of time. She knows everything that happens in every timeline, every universe, and every branch.
Rewriting reality
Her will is enough to overwrite the entire worldview, change all the laws of operation, and reshape reality as she wishes, use her wishes to create endless possibilities.Make the impossible possible.
Concept Existence
She has become a conceptual being, existing in the possibility of every point in time. Unless one can reach the concept and transcendence, it is impossible to even touch her.
Energy BuildEven far above Infinity, she can still use her bow to attack targets below, simply nocking the bow and firing a powerful energy arrow.
Skirt Universe and Infinitely Long Hair
Her clothes and hair can expand her reach to an amazing degree. But don't think that she can't touch physical existence just because she has become a concept. Even a slight pressure from her fingers can damage the record that carries the infinite universe.
Power Possession
By possessing the souls of all magical girls, she can use all of their powers.These include:
Elemental manipulation (other magical girls can manipulate water, fire, electricity, earth, light, darkness, etc.)
Time manipulation
Space manipulation
Fate manipulation (some magical girls such as Yui Tsuruno can manipulate probability)
Illusion manipulation
Narrative manipulation
Knull
Symbiote Manipulation
Knull first discovered his ability to create life from darkness itself when he manifested from his shadow in full blackness to kill a celestial. Over eons, he experimented and honed this aspect of his power, assembling a suit of symbiote armor, building an artificial planet, and gathering a horde of wyvern-like monsters from the living abyss.
As the divine progenitor of the symbiotes and a link to the hive mind, Knull is able to mentally influence and dominate symbiotes even while sealed, driving them mad with bloodlust and hunger. He is also able to telekinetically control them, allowing him to see through their eyes and directly control them; manipulating them even without making direct contact with them. Symbiotes infected by Knull typically have red spirals in place of their eye spots, and are more powerful than symbiotes that have been disconnected from his dark hive mind; sometimes even gaining new powers and abilities as a result of this connection. Knull is also able to forcibly remove symbiotes from their hosts, either by blasting them away with his mental powers or ripping them off with his bare hands. Knull is also able to dominate and corrupt other non-symbiote dark entities through the symbiote
Energy Blast
He can fire red or purple beams powerful enough to knock the Silver Surfer down.
Immortality
Knull is very difficult to kill, having existed for 13.7 billion years, through seven Big Bangs. He has strong self-healing abilities, and after being pierced through the head and falling from space to the surface of a planet, it took him centuries to fully heal his injuries. Even after his body was completely disintegrated by Eddie Brock using the power of the God of Light, Knull's consciousness attempted to take over Dylan Brock from the symbiote hive mind, but was thwarted by Eddie and seemed to be completely destroyed.
Shape-shaping
This is the ability he passed on to the symbiote. Through shape-shaping, he can change his own form.
Time manipulation
He can go back in time through the time stream, revive Mister E, and save his past self.
Cosmology
Madoka Magica
The cosmology of Madoka Magica is much larger than you might think. It starts with a single universe. A universe has an infinite size.
In this series, the universe where ordinary people live is called the "outer universe", which, according to Gen Urobuchi, was created by Madoka himself (original words: the universe we live in). And within it, there is the "inner universe", which forms a Möbius strip relationship with the former. In the "inner universe" there is the "time dimension", which is a sequence line that merges time itself, called 4D or time itself.
On top of this, each person's choice will have a timeline, and a single universe in the Madoka Magica series has infinite timelines. On top of this, the infinitely vast universe constitutes the story of each individual series, just like the entire cosmology of Magia Record.
In the universe, there are black holes, and these black holes also have a small universe inside them, and these universes are also countable and infinite. According to Gen Gen kusano, the author of "Non-Magical Girl", he referred to the theory of physicist Lee.Simolin, and the universe in it can be interpreted as an 11D superstring worldview
.
The cosmology of Magia Record consists of infinite universes, each of which contains different versions of each item. This is a multiverse structure, and Madoka herself only sees the entire cosmology as a record, and even her feather is enough to crush it.
And Magia Record is just an insignificant point among all possibilities. In Madoka's eyes, all of these may be a literaly record, a book, or a rubber duck, but they are all created by the Law of the Circle - the Law of the Circle is just a song she sings.
Therefore, Madoka is at least above infinite dimensions. Depending on your understanding, you can put it higher and take as much or as little as you want.
Marvel(Damn it)
The Marvel Universe is huge. It starts with a single universe that is infinitely large, and then expands into an infinite number of alternate timelines at every quantum moment. With every subconscious and unconscious action and inaction, an infinite number of alternate timelines (universes) are created. Then, for each universe, an infinite number of alternate universes are created over and over again, the AD Infinitum. This is just starting with one universe and becoming a subsection of the multiverse. Each universe represents a manifestation of multiple eternities. The larger multiverses are much larger and have been described as infinite, and even transfinite (an infinite sequence of infinite numbers, each number greater than the other - it all starts with the aleph-null, the baseline infinity). Above the transfinitely growing multiverse are an infinite number of spatial dimensions, even referred to as planes of reality (where a transfinite number is implied). Of course, what makes Marvel Marvel is not just one multiverse, but an infinite number of multiverses and superuniverses that together make up the one Omniverse.
Outside is the Oblivion. Beyond Oblivion lies the farthest Beyond at the end of all things. This is where Yggdrasil's truest essence yields, and every aspect of it emanates into the lower realms.
Many people have explained how ridiculous and huge Marvel cosmology is, and I don't think I can explain it all in one go, so I'll put a link to a more detailed and convincing one here:
Marvel Comics Cosmology (World Hierarchy) | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom
Support
Madoka
Messenger of God
As her main aids, they are part of the Principle of the Circle, sliced from it. They also have the same omniscience and omnipotence as her, viewing cosmology as a record. Their essence is all the magical girls who have been accepted into the cycle. They can control themselves in witch form, and can also fight as magical girl forms themselves. Madoka can be summoned from the Circle of Principle at any time when needed.
Knull
Symbiote Dragon
They are minions created by Knull using the symbiote as the vanguard of his attack on Earth. They can fight multiple heroes and infect others. Some of them can even make the heroes bleed. While they can be killed by some street-tier attacks, their numbers are enough to be a nuisance.
Feats
Madoka
Erased all witches and stopped despair.
She created records containing an infinite number of universes with a single thought. These records can even be crushed by the touch of her fingers and the weight of a feather.
Gen Urobuchi called her a being beyond Jesus.
Purified the soul gem of all parallel universes and timelines.
She is the hope that steps into all timelines, all universes, and is everywhere（Uncalculated speed）.
Scaling
Mirror Witch
Her body contains countless mirror spaces that reflect mirror worlds, and these spaces reflect each other. Each mirror world has a person's equivalent.Possessing the ability to merge "multiple parallel universes" into one, she uses this ability to correct the universe. At the same time, the existence of the mirror is strongly related to the universe connected by the mirror, and the existence of the mirror can determine the existence of the connected universe (choose the history it want, and make the universe that is not chosen never exist).
Iroha Tamaki
As someone who borrowed little of Madoka's power, she was able to:
Completely re-edit the Magia Record, which is the world view itself. Untie the countless threads that entangle it, and assimilate part of her body with it.
Defeat Mirror Witch.
Possessing infinite magical girls' superimposed power.
Knull
Broke the planet-sized cage (without sword)
With sword:
Knocked down the Silver Surfer, killing him.
Injured Thor, who had the power of Odin.
Fought Thor, matching his attacks one-on-one.
Thor
Even with the power of Odin, Thor still had a hard time fighting him, and Knull's claws even made him bleed. Thor can:
Push the Yggdrasill
Use two hammers (one of which contains the symbiote, ironically) to resist the shockwave of the god who destroyed the entire timeline.
Can fight in Planck time.
Easily transcend the concept of time.
Silver Surfer
Defeats Galactus.
Possesses unlimited power.
His speed is described as incalculable, and he can travel into the future, escape the possibility of destruction
Weaknesses
Madoka
Deprivation of power: Although Madoka has transcended the concept of a magical girl, without the weakness of the Soul Gem, and exists in every time and concept, her powers can be stripped away, just like what Devil Homura did to her. But this requires someone who exists in the same concept as her.
Knull
Light: Despite Knull's immense durability, he is particularly vulnerable to a force he calls "the Light", which was created with the Big Bang and first propagated across the Abyss by the Celestials. "The Light" refers not only to the literal light of stars and other celestial bodies, but also to various powers possessed by cosmic entities and deities - which could cause him pain or even harm if used against him; concepts such as honor, mercy, compassion, and nobility - which undermine his control over the symbiotes and cause them to attack him; and life itself. Knull attempted to use his army of symbiotes to destroy and corrupt the Light, but his control over them was severed when the symbiote dragon he inhabited was struck by Thor's lightning. Centuries later, his incarnation was temporarily destabilized by bio-electric venom blasts from totemic incarnation Miles Morales, as well as sonic and energy grenades.
Telepilot: When Knull telepilots a symbiote, any damage done to the symbiote also harms him - as when Thor blasts a hole in the symbiote's hand, causing a corresponding wound to appear on Knull's hand until he regenerates.
Hive Mind Infiltration: When a human or metaphysical manifestation of the Codex has freedom within Knull's hive mind, they can fight the symbiote under his control, and also cause him pain if not dealt with.
Sword Dependence: Much of Knull's overwhelming power comes from his sword's connection to the god. Knull was unaware of this until Valkyrior severed the connection, thus depriving him of a large amount of his power.
Verdict
Power
Let's compare their power and durability first. It's not hard to see that both have great power. Knull can hurt those top Marvel Heralds, but Madoka is not inferior. Both have power above infinite layers of dimensions, but Knull obviously has a higher ceiling, thanks to... He is a Marvel character, and he certainly has more scaling available, even if its scaling chain is so long. Comparing the two cosmologies, it is conservative to say that Knull's high end is obviously more powerful, but the gap is far less exaggerated and huge. But he also shows a lot of low ends. He will be burned by the flames of stars and seriously injured by big explosions. His durability does not match his attacks. This is the weirdness of comic scaling. To be safe, we'd better make the two the same, or take the upper limit and let Knull take the advantage.
Speaking of speed, both have immeasurable speed. Knull can scale to character who can escape time and destruction itself, but Madoka... just exists everywhere. Knull basically can't escape her pursuit because she has spread all over time, space, and concepts. Although Madoka is much bigger in terms of speed and breadth, it is conservative to say that the two should be the same in this regard.
Ability
When it comes to abilities, it's a totally different story. Although his army of symbiotes is huge, Madoka has many ways to destroy them, and can match her messengers with these symbiotes one by one, or simply destroy them directly outside of infinity. She can use all the abilities of magical girls and has the power of omniscience. She can know the weaknesses of symbiotes and Knull to elements such as light, fire, sound waves, and electricity, and use these to quickly eliminate them.
When Knull wants to hurt Madoka's true form, everything becomes a bit stretched for him. He has not shown the ability to break through and deprive concepts, making it difficult to hurt her. You can argue that he has stabbed the god who represents the existence of concepts with a sword, but he needs to stab a sword in every time and every concept, which is obviously difficult.
But for Madoka, she can erase concepts, rewrite the universe, and manipulate fate, which becomes an effective weapon for her to finish off Knull. She can snipe him across the entire timeline, or erase his existence like she eliminated the witch.
Tertiary Factors
Speaking of this, Knull has billions of years of experience, but Madoka has become a god who has existed since the beginning of time, with infinite knowledge of time and the universe, plus countless memories of her battles, making her undoubtedly a better fighter. Although Knull can physically match Marvel's heroes, he has never shown combat skills, and the gap between the two is visible to the naked eye.
Conclusion
Madoka
"If someone says it's wrong to hope, I will tell them that they're wrong every time. I could tell them that countless times!"
Better fighter +
More diverse abilities +
Concept of existence makes her almost invulnerable +
Has a way to destroy the opponent once and for all +
Can know everything about the opponent at the beginning of the battle +
Recognized as a lesbian by Gen Urobuchi+
Same speed at the infinite end =
Far weak at the high end-
May be hurt by the sword-
Knull
“You want to know who I am, host? Let me show you. I am Knull. Lord of the Abyss. God of the Symbiotes.”
Much stronger at the high end +
More diverse weapons +
Have hurt similar forms of gods +
Same speed at the infinite end =
Almost powerless against her concept of existence-
Will be destroyed by the given method-
Very obvious stains at the low end-
The weaknesses of the symbiote and itself are exploited-
Have a huge disadvantage in intelligence-
Unable to have homosex-
The final battle between the pink girl and the symbiote has finally come to an end. Knull may not have an advantage due to his shameful low-end, because he is facing an opponent who can crush cosmology with one finger. But with the high-end scaling of Marvel Herald, he will become unstoppable until he can't find any means to break through Madoka's concept existence. Maybe he is strong, but brute force alone, without the power of depriving concepts, is difficult to destroy an opponent... I have said enough, existing in every time point of the concept and infinite timelines.
In contrast, Madoka has more options to win. Her light can cause serious damage to Knull, disarm his symbiote through elemental manipulation, fight against the army of symbiotes with her messenger, disarm him through existence override, make him powerless or erase all his existence, or change probability and fate to create a possibility of his demise. With more knowledge, she will certainly know what to do to eliminate this threatening existence as quickly as possible.
It may come as a shock to many, but Madoka used her comparable strength, indestructible tenacity, and versatile abilities to completely Knull Out the God of Symbiotes.
The winner is Madoka Kaname.
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